Healer Ethics

Harpers Tale - Leywen - Thursday, June 28, 2001, 2:05 AM
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Leywen
A short angular nose sits in the middle of an equally angular face with a sharp-edged chin and high cheekbones. Arching over slightly slanting amber eyes are long thin dark eyebrows. Her skin is a dark klah-colored tone, and black hair plaited in several rows of braids have been gathered in a runnerstail reaching just below the level of her shoulders. Her body is lean and well-trained, the thighs and calves of her long legs hardened by long hours of exercises. Breasts are small and round, her cleavage leading up to a long neck, and out to strong shoulders and upperarms.
A beige-colored heavy tunic, made from soft thick cotton, falls around her upperbody and down her arms, while a rustling canvas skirt, dyed a light brown, flows around her legs. Her feet are covered by short wherhide boots, wellkept and and soft, providing warmth and support. Leywen's Listening Tube is slung casually around her neck.
Hanging from Ley's left shoulder is a purple and white single-looped knot, appointing her a healer apprentice.
She is awake and looks alert.
You notice Leywen looking at you.
Leywen is 18 Turns, 7 months, and 3 days old.

You go to the Healer Lounge.

Healer Lounge
This is a very cozy room where Healers often spend their free time relaxing, talking, and participating in a little recreation. Dotted about the room are small tables and big comfy looking chairs that are great for sitting down and talking in. Also there are tables set up around the room with chairs set at them, to be used for studying, or any other activity that might need the support of a table.
In one wall is the doorway that leads into the Healer Great Hall, and the rest of the Hall. Other doorways are quietly recessed around the room, leading off to the various quarters of the Healers. One leads to the Apprentice Dorms, another to the hallway that houses the rooms of Journeymen and Masters, and a third that leads to the children's area.
Aerrin is here.
Obvious exits:
Healer Great Hall Apprentice Dormitory Children's Area Journeymen and Masters Hall

Fareia walks in from the Healer Great Hall.

Tyran walks in from the Healer Great Hall.

Fareia walks into the room, her bag slung over her shoulder, having just come back from her physical, she figures she can take a break for a while. But little does she know, as she sees the other healers gathered that she's about to be pounced upon with a class. Erk. She settles into a chair, yawning, gazing around at her fellow healers, a neutral expression set on her face.

Dima walks in from the Healer Great Hall.

Tyran sweeps into the Healer Lounge grandly--well, he'd like to think so, anyway. For anyone else, it'd be just about a normal stride--albeit long strides given the proportions of his long legs. He is well o ver six feet tall, after all. He glances around at the people, catching word of something exciting brewing in the Lounge--an Ethics class! Always fun--especially when you're annoying like Tyran can be. So in he comes, giving a nod to one of the elder Apprentices whom he recognizes and plopping himself down into one of the more comfortable, cushy chairs. Might as well be comfortable--especially with Aerrin teaching, which he assumes. He gives her a small wave and smile and then lets his arms and hands rest on, conveniently, the armests of the chair. He leans into the back of it heavily, situating himself.

Dima walks in to greet what seems to be her very energetic class mates "Hi, i'm Dima..."

Leywen trails a blanket after her as she comes out of the dorms, making her way to a comfy chair, she slumps into it bunching the heavy blanket around her. "Cold," she mumbles, looking around at the folks here, giving the journeypeople a nod of courtesy. Was there any rules against being compfortably during a class?

Aerrin is already settled neatly in the couch that was once claimed as her favorite, knees pulled up to hold the hide she's skimming in place. Her eyes are fixed on the tiny, handwritten text, and she doesn't glance up as others pass in and out.. out and in. She's busy, you see. Only an occasional movement to turn a page or tuck a stray curl back into the sloppy pony-tail atop her head give away the fact that she /is/ doing something..

Dima walks over to a comfy looking chair and plops down while waiting for class to start

Fareia watches Dima for a moment with disbelief. A rather /jovial/ person she seems to be. Erk. More cheery people. Hasn't she dealt with those enough today? She smiles slightly to Aerrin and Tyran, them being rankers that deserve a slight bit of a "cheery apprentice" illusion.

Aerrin glances up after a moment - yes, she /has/ noticed the gathering crowd. And she's not quite as absent-minded as she may appear. Her hide is closed with a firm *thud*, and she grins as she swings around to face the room a bit more fully. "Well.. we've certainly got a crowd today, hmm?" she questions, scanning the room swiftly for new faces. "Ty! Hey. Gonna sit in?"

Dima glances around at the suroundings, and talks to her self "man, i havent been here in a long time.." dima starts to smack herself and points her finger at her forehead "Stop talking to yourself!!"

Leywen is having trouble smiling today as she's just cold and tired. Why did she ever leave the desert anyway? Oh, yeah, she wanted to be a healer. And classes went along with that, right, which was why she was now sitting here all wrapped up in a blanket, looking from Aerrin to Tyran and at the other apprentices.

"Thought I would, Aerrin," Tyran replies, inclining his head in an affirmative gesture. "Don't mind, do you? It's always fun... well, for me, anyway." His lips curl into an amused grin--maybe not for her, but he won't imply that quite yet. His crystalline green eyes twinkle brightly, happy person being that he is. Why shouldn't he be?

Fareia knew it. It /is/ a class. But a class on what? It seems to have escaped her mind for the moment and sits back in her chair, pulling her legs up and crossing them.

Aerrin can handle anything - even a Tyran. Really. Her lips twitch into a slight smile as she accepts whatever challenge his prescence might present, and another curl is tucked back into her ponytail. Again. "Of course not... so long as you contribute like a good little journeyman," she notes, eyes twinkling before she turns them toward the apprentices. "Well.. I think we have enough to get started. We're talking about Healer Ethics today.. so let's start out with a nice, easy question, hmmm? Who can tell me what ethics are?"

Dima swooshes her head back in a confused state "never really thought about it.."

"The only reasons a Healer has to be good," Tyran helpfully offers with a nod of his head, propping his head up by his arm on the armrest of the chair. His grin perhaps gives away that he's just jesting, though he remains silent after such jest to wait to see what the Apprentices have to say. He won't be totally intrusive.

Fareia shrugs and offers,"Um..Moral values or something like that?" With a bit of a yawn after her contribution she leans back again, wiggling her toes in her sandals and watching them for lack of any other amusement.

Leywen pulls her legs up under her in order to rest her notebook on her thighs, her pencil ready to take notes on the subject. Hearing the first question, she looks up, brows furrowed as she ponders the question. "Ethics," she mumbles, "stuff that's considered to be right?" Right?

Dima blinks

Aerrin tilts her head toward Fareia in a half nod. "Ah.. but what are morals? The two are closely related, yes." She pauses, eyes turning to Leywen as she listens before nodding. "Stuff that's considered to be right - yes, that's very close. So here's a question for you... is what I consider to be right the same as what you consider to be right?"

Dima reaches into her bag to grab her notebook and jots down the definition of ethics
Dima says, "No, sometime, but not all the time, are the healer ethics meant for all healers to obey and use?""

Leywen grins, tilting her head toward Aerrin, "probably not, journeywoman," she says, shaking her head slightly. "I mean, people from different backgrounds may have different upbringing and opinions on what's right and wrong."

Fareia is so smart, oh yes. After blinking at the other apprentices she copies them, pilling out a notebook and jotting ethics down. At the question she says,"Well of course not. Everyone believes different things." Like death. Some people say it is horrible, others say it is just the next venture in life.

Dima nods "You know, so that we all act like we are supposed to, especially around our patients."

Fareia argues slightly with Dima,"It's impossible to have one definite set of ethnical rules though."

Aerrin's smile spreads just a bit as her head dips in another nod. "Exactly.. we all come from different backgrounds and different beliefs, yet as Healers, we have to deal with similar situations. This is how we tend to differentiate between 'ethics' and 'morals'. Morals may be the widely accepted rules that you follow - the rules of the hold, for instance, whereas ethics tend to deal more with your own system of morals." She shifts a bit, curling a leg up under her as she nods at Dima. "That's an excellent question. The answer is yes.. and no. Some things we are forced to conform to as Healers - others you must decide for yourself. This class is meant to inform you of the first and think hard about the second."

Dima wildly jots down her notes in her notebook she then re-adjusts in her chair and look very uncomfortable.

Leywen nods slightly taking a few notes, using the handwriting she can actually /read/, which makes her write rather slowly. "So there's some stuff we'll have to forget about. That we learned from home?" she asks, looking up again, her eyes darting around the room at the others. "And new things we have to learn instead?"

Fareia scritches a few things down, cocking her head and watching Aerrin curiously. "Every situation is different, right? So you can't have a list of rules, but you have to decide what's best," she asks, wanting her comment clarified. As she hears Leywen her eyes glance away for a moment, thinking of home. She didn't learn much there, but that's a long story.

OOC: Tyran is holding the class up. It's my fault. You can all beat me later. :P

Aerrin nods slowly, grin fading a bit as she replies to Leywen. "Well, that will depend on what you learned at home. But yes, some of the rules governing our behaivor as healers may go against your instinct.. it's hard to accept some of them. Other situations, yes, don't have rules..." And now her eyes turn toward Fareia. "But have guidlines, instead. Or we'll simply discuss them in order to make you think about what you would do.. because the stress of a situation can often warp judgement, and thinking about the possibilities ahead of time can help that." She pauses for slight emphasis before scanning the group again. "Now.. what might you use ethics for?"

Dima just jots down her notes "Can you get maybe like punished in some way for not having or using ethics?

Fareia shrugs, habitually drumming her fingers on her notebook, opening her mouth to answer, then closing it again. Knowing sort of what she means, but not knowing how to say it, so she stays silent.

Pulling a bit on her blanket, bunching it tighter around her legs, Leywen looks up at Aerrin as the question on what to use ethics /for/ is voiced. "So that you have something to stick to... Something to refer to?" So maybe she's guessing here, but she's not afraid to speak up.

Dima finally shoots up out of her chair from discomfort and looks around very embarrased, and plops down onto the floor
Dima says, "Sorry if i startled anyone, that chair was just really uncomfortable, and the floor look welcoming!"

Aerrin nods swiftly at Dima. "Of course.. but again, it's taken on a case by case basis. We'll talk more about that near the end. But as Healers, we have taken Oaths - to put our patients before ourselves, to do no harm.. these are related to ethical behavior." She pauses again, chewing on her lower lip as she ponders her phrasing. "Let me ask this a different way - what are some situations in which you might have to rely on Ethics?"

Fareia bites the inside of her cheek, watching Aerrin, thinking. Um..She doesn't know many situations, but maybe she can dream one up. Nope, no dreaming for Farie at the moment. Best let others do the talking.

"When a patient is dying," Tyran offers from the semi-back of the room. His eyes are half-lidded, perhaps pretending just to be asleep as he listens. So he's not hardly intrusive at all--just evaluating, Apprentices, the class, and maybe Aerrin too. None can tell the mind of another man, after all. Right?

Leywen frowns, glancing down at Dima on the floor, then back up at Aerrin. "When you have to make a difficult decision? Like maybe in life and death matters?" she attempts, eyes looking questioningly from one journeyperson to the other.

"As in, if a patient is unconscious--whether or not you, as the Healer on the spot, should give treatment or just let the patient die," Tyran clarifies, not wanting to create confusion amidst the class. He's seen it happen before. Haven't most Healers by the time they reach his age? Old man.

Dima nods in a learning fashion "so, if it is a life or death situation in other words?"

Leywen swallows as she suddenly gets the full picture of what Tyran is saying, her expression turning somewhat pained. "There are situations where you might... Do nothing?" she asks tentatively, her voice low as if she really doesn't want to ask the question.

Fareia blinks and looks at Leywen, then glances to Tyran. Her stomach gives an uncomfertable flutter. Do nothing. She has had experience in that before. Do nothing. It shouldn't happen.

Dima sighs with her wondering mind, very small attention span, "hmmm is there anything else i want to ask?" Dima smacks herself again "Grr quit talking ot yourself!"

Aerrin's head bobs a bit at each answer. "There are any number of times when you, as a healer, will have to make a decision that is not easy. Let me give you a scenerio - right out of Tyran's example," she notes with a half-smile. "You have a patient who's been in a severe accident. He's been burnt over most of his body, he's in intense pain, and he'll be horribly scared for life. He wants to refuse treatement. You, as a healer, know that he could live rather normally, though scared, if treated, but that he's likely to die without it. What do you do?"

Leywen's eyes glace over as she stares out into the space in front of her, thinking hard about that scenario. Finally, after a long consideration, she shakes her head, looking up at Aerrin apologetically. "I don't think I have the experience to decide that right now...."

"Treat him," Fareia nearly exclaims. "Can't you just explain that he'll live if he's treated?" At least that's what Fareia would do, because no one did that for her sister. "But if they would die, even with treatment, you would just do nothing," she adds softly.

Dima smiles "I, personally, would sit down with him, and have a little talk with him, like a little counciling session. Just hear what his fears and things are. Just reason with him, and do my best to convice him to accept treatment.

"You can reason with a man who's leg is only attached by a tendor or two? Can you counsel a person whose head is gushing blood?" Tyran directs his questions at Dima with raised brows--curious answer, curious.

Dima Grrrs "no, not for those situations, but for the situation Aerrin presented, yes.

Tyran runs a finger along his cheek for a moment and smiles, gently, towards Dima. "Have you ever seen a man badly burned? Heard his cries? Seen his face, his eyes?"

Aerrin's gaze fixes intently on Leywen. "And when /will/ you have that experience?" she questions, voice rather soft as she shakes her head. "This is what we're here to learn.. but if you come in with that attitude, you're never going to feel ready. No one is ever /prepared/ to decided whether a man lives or dies." She shifts again, nodding at Tyran. "These situations are usually ones in which quick decisions are neccessary." Her fingers drum softly against her thighs, and she watches Dima for a moment. "Ok.. let me change the situation a bit. Same guy, same problems.. and he wants to refuse treatement. Only now, you know that he will not only be scarred, but he will also not be able to take care of himself. He'll be crippled, unable to walk, barely able to use his arms. What then?"

Dima rolls her eyes "No, i havent, those kind of desisions work best for me when i /have/ to decide something, i really cant tell you exactly how i would act now, it all depends on the situation.

Fareia cocks her head at Dima,"A person that's in intense pain? That might be screaming while you reason or not have that much time?" she says contradicting herself and then turns towards Aerrin to ask,"Can you go against the patients will and treat him even if he doesn't want to be? But not in that situation..."

Dima speaks sternly "i would not sit there and think about it for three hours, i would do what i instictively comes to me, and that is to help one in need
Dima also wonders isnt that why we are taking this class? To learn what to do? not to criticize each other on what /they/ would do.

Leywen frowns at the journeywoman, catching herself before answering back, then nods instead, slumping back in her chair. "I guess what I mean is, I won't know till I'm in the situation..." Even if she was supposed to imagine a badly injured man like that, and decide what to do on that basis, she just couldn't. So call her unimaginative. "But if I had to make a decision - on the second scenario - I'm not sure I'd treat him..."

Dima shas "that is wxactly what i have been trying to say leywen 'I won't know till I'm in the situation'/

Aerrin holds up a hand swiftly. "All right, guys.. let's regroup. As I said before, the point of this class is to think about what you would do so that, when the situation comes, you are /not/ acting on pure instinct, but with previosly-thought-out actions. So that you /don't/ have to decide in the midst of adrenaline and stress and a screaming patient. We are /also/ in this class to learn from and think about what others would do, if it's different from your own." Her head shakes swiftly again. "But see.. making decisions based on 'the situation', when you don't have time to think it through properly, is not always fair to the patient. We sometimes have only seconds to act... which is why you need to think about these things /now/. We can't always think about /everything/ before hand.. but we can try.

Fareia cocks her head at Aerrin and once again repeats,"Can you go against what a patient wants? Or do you have to convince them to accept the treatment?"

Leywen's mouth forms a small 'o' as she listens to the journeywoman, then nods as she thinks she understands. "So that you react on.. Well, 'experience'? Rather than gut instinct?" she says, glancing up at Aerrin again, then down at her notebook to make a couple of thick black lines over something she'd jotted down there.

Aerrin turns toward the others. "What do you guys think? Can you? That goes back to the first situation..."

Tyran raises his hand, not that he's afraid of interrupting, but he looks up towards Aerrin's way and ventures a half-smile. "Aerrin... might I interrupt this thought for a minute?" He glances at the Apprentices, then back to her and explains, "I think there's an issue that is pertinent to this discussion that we've left out--that would greatly help us figure out what we 'should' and 'should not' do."

Aerrin nods quickly. "Please, Tyran.. do."

Leywen turns to biting her knuckles as she considers the question on going against a patients wishes. Looking up at Tyran, she frowns wondering what exactly it was he meant.

Tyran leans back into the chair and takes a deep breath, clearly thinking about what he's going to say before he starts speaking. After he exhales his breath through slightly parted lips, he begins. "As Healers, we're bound by duty, are we not? What we're in essence discussing here is what is and what is not a Healer's duties, defined in terms of an overriding ethical code. That is well and good, but... what concerns me is the definition of duty." He wets his lips and leans forward just slightly. "Our most overriding principle, as we spoke in the sacred Oaths we have all taken, is to do no harm. Thus, I ask you all. What does it mean to do no harm? Mustn't we decipher *that* first? Is that a statement of direct activity or does it necessarily encompass what we would *not* do that would *bring about* harm?"

OOC: Fareia notes that this is turning into my language arts class. We always have these long drawn out discussions about ethic-type issues.
Aerrin *grins. That's what's so fun about this class.

Mirenda walks in from the Healer Great Hall.

"Well I think it once again, depends on the situation," Fareia answers maturely. "If someone was about to go around for the rest of their life crippled and braindead, then that would almost be bringing about harm if we gave them treatment. But If someone might obtain a physical handicap, that might prove a bit dificult but they can still function and think, then that doesn't count as harm," she says, almost confusing herself.

Tyran rests a finger lightly on his cheek and regards Fareia, nodding just slightly. "Perhaps. But that still sheds no light on this mystery... what does 'harm' really mean? Physically, how can you possibly say that a person's death resulted in no harm? Death is the ultimate harm, is it not? Death is what we try and save people from, is it not?"

Leywen leans her head back, on the headrest of the chair she's in, staring up at the ceiling as she tries to understand and form and opinion on Tyran's statement. She groans slightly, as she closes her eyes, squeezing them hard together, before righting her head opening them to look at the journeypeople. "I agree with Fareia..." she says, pausing for a long time before continuing. "A healer should always prioritize life over death if there's any possibility that the patient might have a reasonable life later on..."

Fareia completely contradicts herself and says,"I think death causes more harm on the family of the person dying. If a person has a choice between being dead and being a simple case of skin and bones, death would be better, would it not? But, of course, family of the dying person might not realize it to be better and might be mentally harmed by the loss. But they have to realize it might be better for the patient. Unneeded death is the ultimate harm though, when a person has a chance to carry on a life."

"Yet, there is no rational basis for a 'reasonable life' as you say," Tyran counters, furrowing his eyebrows as he does so, now leaning forward in his chair, quite engaged. "It's your own personal decision, and the Healer is *not* granted sole determining power over a person's life. What if the person wants treatment even though they will lead a 'miserable' life if they are saved? According to your theory, we should go ahead and let that person die, on our own judgment. Does that sound fair to you?"
Tyran glances at Fareia as she speaks. "Again, you're suggesting that we should come up with our personal basis of decision on whether or not a person deserves to live. We are not in the business of deciding who is more fit than others to live. At least, not the last time I checked."

Fareia shrugs slightly,"I am not deciding who is more fit to live, as you put it. In death, it is the patient's descision, whether they want to carry on a life of non-living, such as a simple case, unable to move or think or function. But if /I/ had that choice, even if it was for myself, I would chose death."

Leywen brings a hand up to her eyes, groaning again. "Of course not," she says, shaking her head, finding this class more and more difficult. "I just mean... Oh, I don't /know/ what I mean," she says, throwing up her hands looking for all the world lost now. All turned around in her ideologies and sense of morale is what she was now.

Tyran suppresses a grin in Leywen's direction--isn't that the idea? To throw people into tailspins. He then looks to Fareia, "So then, in the final analysis, you're saying that the Healer *allowing* a patient to die is not, by definition, causing harm, in any way or fashion. Is that your opinion?"

OOC: Dima says "do you think we can move on? all we are doing is gettin agrivated at each other, and it is not gettin us anywhere"
OOC: Dima says "i am not trying to be.. well, what ever you think i am trying to be"

Fareia shakes her head again,"It is causing harm. To the patient's family and in a lot of situations, to the patient. But in some situations, it beats the harm of the alternative."

Aerrin *grins. Opinionated is good. S"what this class is all about. Nice char developer, this one is.

Tyran lifts his chin up slightly and murmurs, "So then what you're saying is that we should determine our ethics in a case-by-case manner? That we should not really even try and come up with a theme that Healers should all live by because cases are too complicated in real life for us to sit and ponder them. So just leave sole discretionary power in the hands of the Healer who happens to be at the spot?"

Dima just sits back and learns a lesson on life

Fareia shakes her head again,"/Guidelines/. There should be guidelines that a healer should decide by. But not a single answer. Because there /can/ be differences in situation." Yes, Farie is opinionated and she doesn't give up on it, either.

OOC: Fareia oohs. This lesson is doing wonders for Fareia. She has this angsty family history that sorta involves this.
OOC: Tyran is going to kind of melt into the background. Food. Num.

"What /I/ think," Leywen speaks up, "is that you should always talk with your patient, and listen to what he has to say.. And if he's incoherent, or unconscious you should speak with his family. And yes, there should be guidelines..."

With a few uncomprehendable mutters picqued at ::between::, Mirenda slinks in, frowning. A sweet stick dangles from her hand, her usual award for going to the dreadful place; but she's sick of this sharding sweetsticks. It's a lousy consolation of the freezing cold. Even High Reaches is warmer, and that's saying something. Grey hued eyes scan over the room, but the girl lingeres towards the back, or atleast, by the exit.

Dima grrs again "That is what i have been trying to say! But that is when tyran pounced on me!

Aerrin shifts slightly, the only movement she's made since she fell silent. "You think there should be guidlines, then. That's quite clear.. but no one's mentioned what those guidlines should be," she points out with a faint smile in Leywen's direction. "You've hit some good points with talking to the patient, listening to what he has to say.. but there has to be an ultimate decision. If you disagree with the patient, do you do what he wants, or what you want?" Mirenda's entrance is noted with a faint nod, though Dima's outburst gains a severe frown from the Journeyman. Discussion or not, this is still a class.

Leywen sighs, hanging her head, while spinning a loose braid around her index-finger. "If I disagree with the patient.." she mumbles, staring at the floor in front of her, her notebook forgotten and slid into the chair beside her. "Well, then I s'pose I would have to confer with another Healer.. See what he or she thinks..."

Fareia shrugs slightly,"Um...I dunno...I think I would go with what he wants, though." Wow, this lesson sure has change Farie's point of view. How...interesting...

OOC: Mirenda will be very quiet in the back, okay? ;p Not exactly up for alot of RPing.

"You will rarely have time for that," Aerrin points out with a glance toward Leywen before she nods at Fareia. "Ultimately, that is what must happen. But you guys have mentioned case by case basis... what about that? Are there instances in which you might /not/ do what the patient wants?" Oh yes.. let's confuse them just a bit more.

"Maybe..." Leywen says, chewing at the end of her braid by now. "If the patient is incoherent and doesn't know what he's saying?" Guessing again, for sure, but if she didn't say anything how was she to know?

Fareia nods towards Aerrin,"Um..Yes, there are," she says unsurely but becomes more confident,"Maybe if they have a mental condition of some sort?"

Aerrin nods slowly. "Both good.. now. In that situation - and here we're assuming that we have a bit more time, because if you had to make a snap decision, that would be up to you - who would you ask. If your patient, for example, were unconscious.. and you needed a decision about long-term care. How do you decide?"

"Ask the closest family member?"Fareia offers with a bit of a shrug.

Leywen turns herself around in the chair, throwing her legs up over the armrest as she tilts her head. Hadn't she already answered that? Or at least made a close assumption of it. "I agree with Fareia.. Ask a family member. Or the one who'd take care of him in the future?"

Aerrin grins, nodding. "That's the general rule, yes. Now... can you think of an instance when you /wouldn't/ trust a family member?"

Fareia nods to Aerrin,"When the family member might be abusive? Or might have a mental condition?"

Leywen hmmms, looking from Aerrin to Tyran to Farei and back to Aerrin. "If they weren't around to ask, of course," she says, stating the obvious.

Aerrin nods. "Yes, and yes..." she states, reaching to shove curls back yet again. "What about if, say, the patient were someone's father.. and the son, who wants you do simply allow his father to die, stands to inheiret on his father's death?"

Fareia has disconnected.
Fareia falls asleep.

Still chewing on her braid (and beginning to find it quite tasty) Leywen tilts her head, looking out through half lidded eyes. "I s'pose I'd ask somebody else. If there was any available. That is, if I know that the son stood to inherit." She nods, satisfied with her answer, even if it might be wrong or incomplete.

Aerrin nods slowly. "These are instances that you /will/ have to judge on a case by case basis.. but you need to be aware that there could be ulteriour motives in those circumstances. Now." She pauses with a grin. "That we have driven that topic in circles for a while.. let's try a new one? Ready for a new situation, or do you have questions?"

Leywen shakes her head, eyes wide as she grins foolishly. "Noo, no questions." Lets not confuse the poor appy's head more by forcing her to ask questions too, eh?

Aerrin nods, pulling her other leg up to sit crosslegged on the couch. A hand rests atop each foot as she begins again. "Ok, then.. here's the situation. You're on a ship - the only healer. The ship wrecks, and although you are lucky enough to end up with only a few scraps, some are seriously injured. How do you decide who to treat first?" A faint shadow flickers across Aerrin's face as she speaks, thought it's pushed firmly aside, replaced by a determined smile.

OOC: Tyran says "The one that offers his excess fat for food when you get hungry!"
Aerrin *does /not/ respond to that. Nope.
Leywen *don't confuse, please! ;)
Mirenda *stays quiet. o.O

"Well, not myself if I only have a few scraps," Leywen says, having had those before from being thrown off runners. "I'd treat those who're in danger of their lives first, then those who're more badly injured than myself. And finally.. Myself." She looks from one journeyperson to the other, feeling very alone all of a sudden now that the other appies were gone.

Aerrin nods slowly, lifting a finger as she speaks. "Ok.. what about this. You have several patients, all severly injured. One is injured worse - you think you can save them, with a lot of time and energy. The others you're sure you can save, but only if they are treated quickly. Who do you go to?"

Leywen blinks, catching herself staring at Aerrin. Was this a question of quantity over quality or something. "I.. I'm not sure. I s'pose I'd try to make the one seriously injured survive while I treated the others, then return to him? ... If that was at all possible," she adds after a pause, considering the question again.

"And if it wasn't?" Aerrin questions simply.

"I'm not sure... If the other injured could survive while I treated the more seriously injured, I'd do that. But they couldn't..." She shrugs, unsure of herself at this point, not even knowing if there's a wrong and right to this question.

Aerrin nods slowly. "It's a tough decision - and hopefully, you'll never be in that position." She pauses for a bare second, frowning before pushing on. "But you may be.. which is why we discuss it. As a general rule, you treat the patients who are the worst off but are also the most likely to survive. Which may, unfortunately, mean that in some circumstances you allow someone to die in favor of treating someone else. Now.. let's say you have, hypothetically, two patients whose injuries are of the same severity. How do you decide who do treat first?"

OOC: Tyran is gonna jet. Go play chess with the ungrateful cur of a friend he has.

Leywen gulps, shaking her head. Was there procedure for such a situation too? "Well, I dunno. Perhaps one is not as strong as the other?" she says, forming the hypothetical situation to her own needs, so she can answer the question. "Then I'd treat the weaker one first, hoping that the stronger might make it anyway?"

Tyran has disconnected.
Tyran falls asleep.

Aerrin shakes her head. "The point is that they ar the same in that respect... and you must base your decision on something else."

Right, yeah.. Sure thing. But what? Leywen feels out of her depth now, hoping for the journeywoman to answer the question for her. "Well, I honestly don't know, Journeywoman Aerrin," she finally says, looking lost and confused.

Aerrin nods quickly. "Well, that's what we're here for, eh?" she notes with a smile. "The next way you narrow it down is by responsibilities. You would treat a young man or woman who is supporting, or partially supporting a family before you would treat a traveler, and so on. If all things, as unlikely as it may be, are equal in that respect as well, then you treat by rank - a Master before an apprentice. The reasoning behind this is that there are lots of apprentices and few masters - an apprentice cannot train more, while a master can."

"Right," Leywen says. Even if she finds it emotionally unreasonable, she /can/ see the logic in the reasoning that a master would be more important than an apprentice. "But... What if they're equal in rank?"

Aerrin laughs softly. "It's unlikely enough that you'd get beyond the first aspect.. if you get beyond all three, use your best judgement, I'd say. Now.. can you think of reasons or instances in which there might be what we'd consider a breach in ethics?"

Mirenda goes home.

Aerrin *is starting to really drag.. will speed up. ;)
Leywen *nods.. And idly notes that it's now past 5am here. ;)
Aerrin *holy cows. Do you want to still finish tonight?
Leywen *how long's it gonna take?
Aerrin *ums. No more than 30 min. Probably not that long if I type fast. ;)
Leywen *nods.. I'd rather finish then. I don't have anything to do tomorrow.. Today.

"I'm not.. Sure," Leywen says, not being sure of /anything/ at this point, where her head was being filled with stuff she'd never even thought of back home. She's not even sure she understood the question.

Aerrin nods slowly. "The biggest reason that mistakes might be made is simple - Healers are human. Sometimes this is hard for us to accept, but it's true. We get tired, we get frustrated, we forget things.. and we make mistakes. We should strive not to.. but it does happen. The second instance is when a healer is decieved or doesn't fully understand the situation - and that relates cloesly to the first. The third is one that we hate to see happen - it should never, ever happen. But it does. That is when a healer deliberately does something that it against the patient's best interests. This is /very/ serious. It could mean severe punishment.. even losing your knot."

Leywen nods solemnly, scrambling to find her notebook in the chair, finding that she's been sitting on it. Doing her best to straighten it out, she proceeds to jot down what the journeywoman had said. "Do no harm," she mumbles to herself, while writing, glancing up at Aerrin for a moment.

Aerrin nods, smiling softly. "Exactly. Now.. do you have any questions or concerns about anything we've talked about?"

"I don't think so," Leywen says, being more confused than reassured by this session. It was going to take her some time to think these matters over, she was sure. All she could think of now was; 'Do No Harm'. A sentence that kept ringing through her head repeatedly.

Aerrin *whees! We're done!

Aerrin nod slowly, reaching for her hide. "Well then.. we're done here. You can grab me anytime if you have questions."

Leywen nods, sitting back in her chair feeling very much drained of strength. Who knew a 'simple' discussion could be so exhausting. "I feel like I've just been exercising runners for an entire morning," she says, giving Aerrin a weak smile as she puts away her notebook and pencil.

Aerrin goes home.

*** Disconnected ***